Ron DeSantis welcomed UK and US' 'shared values' during his first visit to London, and also praised Kemi Badenoch. Photo: Paul Grover for The Telegraph
This was his first visit to London and Ron DeSantis was not disappointed. The governor of Florida immediately felt comfortable in Britain, the birthplace of the philosophical principles that he cherishes.
«If you're an American and you truly believe in and appreciate the core values of America, no matter your ethnicity, when you come here, it's like a second home,» said DeSantis, Donald Trump's arch-rival for the Republican presidential nomination. 2024, he told me on Friday during his fast-paced trip to the UK.
His intellectual and emotional affinity for the common Anglo-American values of individualism, private property and government limited by law was evident, and when we get to the point he speaks with passion and his eyes light up.
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“Our founding fathers, when they started the revolution, did not rebel against the British way of life. They rebelled because they wanted the rights of the British. That's what they believed. The architecture and infrastructure they built in America to preserve a free society actually stemmed from their understanding of what was best in British society and politics. You see it in everything we do.”
A little later, DeSantis goes even further. “Because of shared values, I feel like this is my home. I almost feel like I'm in an American city because we share such a common culture.»
He recalls a previous vacation golfing in St. Andrews, describing it as «a once-in-a-lifetime experience.» life.» . It was fun.”
Joe Biden recently took a selfie with Jerry Adams. Barack Obama removed the bust of Sir Winston Churchill from the Oval Office. DeSantis, by contrast, is a Churchill fan. His recent autobiography-manifesto begins with a famous wartime hero quote that courage is rightfully considered the foremost of the virtues, and his only downtime during the British leg of his trip was a visit to Churchill's War Rooms, which he describes as «very inspiring». «.
He adds: “His extraordinary determination when everything was at stake; he wasn't going to fail, it was against all odds. It was inspiring.”
Does he still see the UK as a key US ally? «Yes, of course. 100 percent,» he replies. For DeSantis, the shared Anglospheric political heritage of Britain and America, what he describes as our «common values,» remains central to understanding the modern world.
» We have a unique relationship because of that, and I think we will always be very, very strong allies as a result.”
He adds: “If we think about it and look at the world, we can say with confidence that there are only a few countries that will be with us when things go wrong. For us, the UK is without a doubt one of them.”
“I feel that even for the fact that I spent one day, the relationship with the US is something that people here really appreciate. They value friendship. It makes sense.”
Does he mean the term “special relationship”? “Yes, 100 percent,” he replies. DeSantis, who wears smart leather boots underneath his suit, met with industry leaders as well as top ministers during his trip.
“It was very, very positive. We met with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, we had several meetings with business leaders. The people were very nice.»
DeSantis, meeting with James Cleverley on Downing Street, says the UK is a key ally USA. Photo: Simon Dawson/10 Downing Street
At the beginning of the interview, which took place in a small room at the Park Lane Hotel, DeSantis looks at me with unusual intensity, but soon relaxes and, contrary to the claims of his critics, behaves personably and passionately in a one-on-one conversation. parameter. He exudes competence and, as befits the CEO of a large US state, executive responsibility.
He articulates and shares his opinion, he does his job perfectly, his visit is organized to the minute by his large staff. .
I ask him about Brexit and tell him that many conservatives believe that Biden is siding with Brussels and is trying to undermine this project. He unconditionally supports our decision to leave the EU.
“Personally, I thought it was a good idea. If I lived here, I would support him. From the US point of view, when you have an allied country that makes a decision, you have to accept it.”
He believes that even Brexit opponents in the US should respect our democratic decision. “It appealed to me philosophically. Even so, from an American perspective, we should not try to push in the other direction.”
All things considered, DeSantis would have supported the UK-US trade deal that many in British and Republican US circles have championed for years, and which Brexit now makes possible?
DeSantis, like many others in contemporary US conservative politics, is not a fan of large multilateral agreements that include agreed rules and restrictions.
“In America, the days of these massive trade deals with all these different countries are probably over. ; a lot of things are thrown into it.»
But there may be an alternative. “Trade will be based on bilateral agreements,” he says. “There is a much better chance that there can be something mutually beneficial between the UK and the US than doing something with the entire EU or the entire Pacific region. Maybe. I need to see the details.»
For DeSantis, there is a clear link between commerce and geopolitics, and he is bringing forward an intriguing new concept: “friendshoring.”
Friendshoring, also known as allishoring, promotes manufacturing and purchasing in countries that are geopolitical allies while reducing relationships with geopolitical enemies.
“At the end of the day, our core trade policy should to correct the excesses of what has been happening with China for the past 20-25 years. We need to rebuild a more important manufacturing and industrial base,” he says. The UK can also help here.
“Part of that could be finding friends where there could be allied countries that can do some of these things. If you're getting it from China, which does have a lot of economic impact on us, that might be fine. I see a lot of this through the lens of how we strengthen our security and supply chain towards the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).”
One of DeSantis' main policies was to wage war in Florida with a relatively new but increasingly dominant set of ideologies commonly described as «awake», including critical race theory. The father of three also banned gender reassignment treatment for minors.
I ask him why this fight is so important to him and why he disagrees with the so-called social justice activists, the abolitionist culture. and other «progressives» who now wield so much power over Western institutions.
“The ideology of the Awakening undermines merit and achievement. This is a real war with the truth. When institutions become infected with awakened ideology, it really corrupts institutions.”
He lists some problem areas. “We see infiltration of schools as a problem, infiltration of bureaucracy as a problem, and infiltration of corporate America as a problem. We say that Florida is a place where people wake up to die. After all, you can't have a successful society if it's run by an awakened ideology. This is fundamentally contrary to reality, facts and truth, and ultimately society must be based on truth.”
During his trip to the UK, he met James Cleverly, Minister for Foreign Affairs, and Kemi Badenoch, Minister for Business and trade, which is also responsible for equality.
His discussion with the latter included her revival war, which he enthusiastically supports. Gender-neutral toilets and the decolonization of school curricula are among the issues the 43-year-old former Conservative leader candidate opposed.
I ask him how the meeting went. “She praised what we are doing in Florida. She stated that this is what they are trying to do in the UK. She pointed out, and I think it's true, that some of the wokes were exported from the United States,» he says.
“It's like you're sitting here in the UK trying to just do the right thing and then all of a sudden you have this dump. This is partly due to the fact that American elites have largely exported it. Elon Musk on Twitter pointed out what's going on in Silicon Valley with these tech companies. They exported this ideology all over the world. Musk changes that with Twitter, but you still have it with others. Obviously Florida is opposed to this, but it is true that you have elites in the United States who are pushing this beyond our borders.”
Referring to Badenoch, he says: «I approve of her and her efforts to make sure it doesn't corrupt British society.»
DeSantis staff tweeted a photo of the meeting between the governor and Badenoch, saying «the British media branded her as the 'anti-revival right darling' (badge of honour!). Two great conservative fighters on a mission.»
Mr. DeSantis praised Kemi Badenoch's efforts to keep the ' does not corrupt British society' Credit: Florida Governor's Executive Office
DeSantis was born in 1978: to his supporters, he is the new Ronald Reagan, and some of his allies seem hopeful that Badenoch can become a candidate for the new Thatcher, potentially recreating an axis over time, which ruled transatlantic politics. in the 1980s.
I ask the Governor if he thinks there could be a generational change among international conservative leaders, with young centre-right politicians shifting their focus to more aggressively fighting the awakening agenda.
«I think so,» he replies . “On the right, for a long time, the main message was: let’s leave the government in place and everything else will work out,” he says, describing his more determined approach to fighting for conservative values.
«We've always just assumed that all these other institutions in society are healthy, whether it's corporate America or academia or all of those other things. Now there's just more understanding that you can win the election and we won the Florida election and that's it.» the left can still impose its agenda through these other arteries of society, and that's the problem.I think there's a better recognition of the need to fight across the board.»
One of the big changes was the takeover by the left of many private companies. DeSantis believes he has the right to intervene on issues of both economic efficiency and democratic accountability.
“If you look at some of the things that corporations do, like ESG [environmental, social and corporate governance], for example, they use economic power. In some respects, as with these asset managers, they are taking the assets of shareholders and trying to impose a political agenda on them. In fact, this is an incorrect distribution of capital, this is not a real market economy, this is its perversion. It's just bad from an economic point of view,” he says.
But there is also a democratic moment. “I also think that this is a situation where they are trying to impose an agenda through the economy. It can change our culture, it can change our society, it can change our politics, even if they collude. Therefore, you should take it seriously.”
I ask how about his battle with Disney, the giant of the entertainment industry. The governor disagrees with the company as it opposes a law preventing schools from discussing certain sexuality and gender issues with young children in Florida classrooms. Unusually for a Republican who traditionally does not seek to interfere in the affairs of private companies, often reflexively taking their side, he has been openly fighting the firm for about a year now.
«Disney's problem is a bit unique,» DeSantis says. “They had their own government in central Florida. It was legally a special area, but in reality, Disney messed it up and just ran it. They had no accountability, no transparency, nothing like that. It means taking one company and treating it almost outside of the normal legal system and constitutional system. This is not the best economy because we have other companies that have to play by different rules.
«With Disney, we really said that they should live by the same laws as everyone else, they should pay their fair share of taxes, and should not be able to actually control the government.» He emphasizes his point: “You have one company that really doesn’t believe that the rules apply to them just because they are big and powerful, and it’s unhealthy… What they tried to do to get away with it was shameful.” '.
He also believes that Disney made a strategic mistake by not supporting his new rules for schools. “When you start talking about the sexualization of minors, youth, and elementary school students, that's wrong, and we, as a state, stand up and say it's wrong. And parents believe that this is wrong, regardless of the party. They want kids to be kids and they want to focus on their studies. Disney's involvement as a company was a huge mistake for their brand.»
Disney fought back in Florida courts last week. What does the governor think will happen? “Ultimately, in Florida, they will not be able to manage themselves. I know they filed a lawsuit; I don't think it deserves attention, but we'll see it through anyway.»
DeSantis is being considered like the new Ronald Reagan by his supporters. Photo: Giorgio Viera/AFP via Getty Images
I'm asking if DeSantis will win his lawsuit against Disney. His response highlights the legal features of contemporary American politics, the intersection of politics and law, and culture wars.
“Disney is in Orlando, but they filed a lawsuit in Tallahassee. These are online shopping. There's a judge in Tallahassee who rules against us all the time. He just rolled over about the election. I think they'll try to get him to bite something. I would never challenge them to make him bite. Clearly this would be something that would be an easy appeal for us. This is usually what happens. The judge in Tallahassee usually rules against us, and then we win the appeal. This has happened probably half a dozen times since I became governor.»
Some of his critics feel that his fight with Disney in particular may give the impression that he is anti-business and may pursue investment. away from Florida. He strongly opposes this statement.
“Most businesses will look and say we shouldn't have one company that is treated differently and has the ability to manage its own operations. This is more useful for the free market. When everyone lives in accordance with the law, this is the essence of the market. This is not an attack on the company, this is a responsibility in all directions so that one company cannot manage itself and live by different rules than all the others. They had a sweet arrangement that no one else had. Ultimately, the market economy is based on competition, it's based on free choice, but corporate wealth does distort the market.”
For DeSantis, Disney's deal is not about freedom, it's about corporate privilege. «Give me an example of anyone who is considered a free market thinker to say that it's okay to choose one company, not only free it from the laws and let them live by different rules, but actually let them have their own government, I don't remember as I read it in Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, referring to the workings of classical liberal economics.
One of the reasons DeSantis remains Trump's main rival for the Republican nomination is the strength of the Florida economy. The Sunny State has significantly outperformed the UK over the past few years, with its economy growing by 2.6% in 2019, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis (vs. 1.6% in the UK), and then contracting by just 1.6% when it opened. quickly during covid annus horribilis 2020 (the UK lockdown collapsed 11 percent that year).
It then rose by 8.4% in 2021 and 4% in 2022, compared to 7.6% and 4.1% in the UK. The UK economy is now slightly larger than it was before Covid, while Germany is still slightly smaller — in contrast, Florida is more than a tenth larger.
Unlike most states in the US, Florida does not levy state income tax, which is paid in addition to federal income tax. By contrast, California is slaughtering those with $48,436 with an 8 percent state income tax rate that eventually rises to 12 percent for those with higher incomes. New York charges a 6.33% rate on income starting at $80,650, rising to 10.9%, and then on top of that, New York City charges an additional 3-4%. But tax policy hasn't changed much in recent years, so what explains Florida's short-term boom?
The first big difference was DeSantis' approach to quarantine. “When Covid hit, we approached it this way, said that society must go on, we must trust people to make their own decisions, and that really divided us. People under stricter Covid regimes rebelled against them and they wanted to move to Florida.”
The second major difference that helped attract more internal migration from other parts of the US was Florida's attitude towards crime in the post-Black Lives Matter era. “We also believe in public safety and law and order. In our country, a movement has arisen to weaken the criminals, especially in some urban enclaves. It was a disaster. You have seen how crime is on the rise. These are cities such as Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles. We have a good structure, and you have other states that have gone in the opposite direction. We attract people to us, we attract wealth to us, and they push people away from themselves and push wealth away from themselves.
With the booming economy, there has been a huge internal population displacement: not only retirees of the past, but also young professionals, parents, hedge fund managers and many others fleeing California and New York. As recently as 2010, New York State's population was significantly larger than the Sunshine State; today, thanks to a huge number of intra-American migrants, Florida is the third most populous state, with about 22.2 million residents compared to 19.7 million in the state of New York. Between 2020 and 2022, approximately 700,000 people lived in Florida; New York State has lost more than 500,000 people, according to census statistics.
«New York State has eliminated cash bail,» says DeSantis. “People commit crimes. They are brought before a judge, they are released, they commit more crimes before they are put on trial for it. They release convicted criminals from places of deprivation of liberty ahead of schedule. They go out and commit new crimes.”
Thus, his explosive population growth was due in part to his own good policies, but also to the mistakes of others, he argues. “We have benefited from our policies and we have got important things right, but we have also benefited from the mistakes of these other states. It doesn't stop. Chicago was a complete disaster, and yet they had just elected a far-left mayor, even more left-wing than the one that caused the problems. You will see wealth move from Chicago to Florida. It will happen.”
DeSantis also emphasizes financial integrity and the need for balanced budgets as key ingredients for economic success. He points out how much cheaper it is to govern Florida than New York State. This argument is also given in his book The Courage to Be Free.
Even though Florida has a larger population now, Florida's fiscal year 2022 budget was only $102 billion, less than half of New York State's $220 billion budget. New York's own budget—an additional $101.7 billion—was almost identical to that of the entire state of Florida. In addition, New York State ranks fifth in the US in terms of debt burden per capita; Florida is in second place. Despite all this public spending, additional debt, and significantly higher taxes, Florida State's services are generally considered the best, DeSantis insists, including its roads and state university system (1st in the nation, compared to 14th for the State University of New York) . .
“People are leaving, the economic base is shrinking, and they have to tax people more and more. They have clung to the truly draconian Covid restrictions for far too long. The difference between living in, say, San Francisco and living in Florida in the second half of 2020 and 2021 was really stark, and that attracted people,” he explains.
I told the governor that some of the centre-right in the UK and other European countries had turned down low taxes. He is not convinced by this: it is clear that DeSantis is firmly committed to a low-tax, supply-driven economy.
“I don't think there is a need to raise taxes. The government has not shown the ability to restrain itself from spending too much. Why do you want to raise taxes to cover expenses that are not reasonable? In the United States, the federal debt has increased by about $10 trillion over the past four or five years alone. It was a complete disaster from a financial point of view. This is not something you can solve with higher taxes. The only way to solve this problem is to stop wasting people on oblivion.”
He goes further and even advocates for more states to follow the path of Florida and completely eliminate the state income tax, making an Art Laffer-style proposal-side argument. “There is a movement for more states to get rid of income taxes. I looked at some states. If you are in an area where there is a lot of mismanagement, you get rid of income tax, there may be a temporary hit to income, but I think that in the medium term even this will pay off because you will attract more people, there is no doubt about it, and you will attract more companies.»
DeSantis emphasizes financial integrity and the need for a balanced budget. as key ingredients for economic success. Photo: Simon Dawson/No 10 Downing Street
I ask him what he thinks of the OECD's corporate tax harmonization initiative, which prohibits countries from charging below 15%, a policy promoted by Joe Biden and Rishi Sunak. “I don’t know the details, but it doesn’t look like I support anything,” he replies. “You want to be as attractive as possible. There is no income tax in Florida, but we have a huge budget surplus. We have an income stream, but this is due to economic activity. It's not because we're trying to tax people too much.»
We return to Covid, a topic understandably close to the governor's heart. He believes that his approach to the fight against quarantine was fully justified. “The US approach to Covid has been a complete disaster. It was caused by panic. It was based on many faulty models and faulty data. In a state like Florida, where we looked at the data and said Fauvism [his name for the approach promoted by Anthony Fauci, America's former head of public health] is not working, we have been pilloried by many elites, the media. , even some Republicans. I was pilloried for opening schools. The teachers' union sued me.»
Can shutting down a society ever successfully deal with an infectious virus? “Whether the lockdowns will ever work, I’m not sure,” he says. But he believes that once the virus spreads even slightly in society, lockdowns at this stage will definitely not work. “It has always been epidemiology. Past studies by the CDC have issued guidance saying that once 1% of the community is infected, mitigation measures are not working at that point. However, the lesson Fauci taught was that if it spreads, it means you're just not blocking hard enough and you need to block more and more.»
DeSantis believes that Florida has weathered the Covid crisis relatively well. , in terms of excess mortality, thanks to a more liberal approach, not in spite of it.
“We helped the elderly, treated, did a lot of things. But I think our society was just healthier. People could make their own decisions, they could live their own lives. I think it's better. Isolating people is not normal. If you think about the costs, you have the psychological costs, you have the health costs of people who missed cancer screenings and didn't go to the doctors, you have the education costs of children who didn't go to school — and what about the economic costs? »
DeSantis' central macroeconomic thesis is that the surge in inflation and many of America's current problems, including its economic downturn, are caused by lockdowns. He highlights the scale of the fiscal and monetary stimulus launched in March 2020 as countries began blocking the measures. “They spent $2 trillion on Congressional deficits, then the Federal Reserve printed trillions and trillions more—what was that supposed to lead to? Milton Friedman said that in 18-20 months there will be inflation.
He adds that there was even more stimulus, including when «Biden made trillions more pro bono when he walked in.» Blockages have also caused disruptions in supply chains, he said. “Now inflation is the result, the Federal Reserve has not acted fast enough. They are probably going to raise interest rates again, there are banks that are struggling, it is much more difficult to get a mortgage. Most of the problems we are currently facing are related to the Fauci policy of March 2020.”
The Bank of England, often blamed for a similar failure in the UK, would have struggled in other ways if DeSantis became the next president.
The bank backs the digital pound, but the trendy idea of central bank digital currencies is anathema to DeSantis. He fears that the Fed will try to launch it unilaterally without proper congressional approval. He is threatening to pass a law in Florida that would ban the recognition of any new such currency.
“I think what they want to do with this is to push out and eliminate cryptocurrencies. They want it to be the only type of digital currency. I think they would also like to move to a cashless society. The problem is that if you have a central bank digital currency that is under the control of the Federal Reserve and that is what you have to use, they will have a huge amount of power to condition your use to create a social credit type system. , limit your activities to what they don't like. I see this as a real danger of empowering unaccountable elites.”
He believes that the seizure of power by officials during Covid is a good reason to fight to preserve cash and contain the power of the monetary authorities. «Covid should have taught us, you give these people an inch, they take a mile.»
He also opposes the Fed, pointing out that there was much more quantitative easing during Covid than during the financial crisis.
“Jerome Powell [Federal Reserve Chairman] said we should unlearn Milton Friedman. Somehow, temporary inflation had to come about. So they did nothing, fell behind the curve, and now they've raised rates at an unprecedented pace, causing turmoil in the economy. It just shows you that central planning is inherently flawed. Why would you give central planners more power over your purchases, your financial freedom and financial privacy? It's a terrible idea.”
I ask DeSantis what he thinks America went wrong under Biden and how he could change that.
«We're in a bad way right now,» he replies. “Biden pursued more of an ideological agenda. If he was normal and less ideological, he would probably be much more popular. He really came under false pretenses. He said he would be a unifier, but he went far to the left. Need a proofreader for leftism. We need to choose the best course.”
He then lists some of his key policies, all of which are sure to be popular with Republican primary voters who will be tasked with choosing a candidate to fight Biden.
“What do you want to do to cure inflation? Spend less money and expand your energy production. Both of them will be deflationary. We need to secure our border and actually build a wall along the border and stop people from entering the country illegally. This is a huge, huge problem. There are drugs that kill many Americans.
“We need a tough crime policy across the board. We need to fight the awakening agenda, especially in the federal bureaucracy. Now he is in the army.”
DeSantis, who has served in the military since graduating from Harvard Law School, expresses particular concern about the state of conscription in the United States. “We have some of the lowest recruiting rates in our lifetime. This is partly due to the fact that people believe that the military reflects the political agenda more than just protecting the country. People see how the country is stuck in the toe. There is a desire to chart a better course.”
Unlike Trump, DeSantis has yet to announce his intention to run for the Republican nomination. He's trailing Trump in the polls, but the first primary is still months away, and the US president's policies are notoriously unpredictable, and this time it's even more unpredictable due to his archrival's growing legal troubles.
I ask DeSantis when he's made his decision, and it's clear the time is almost right.
«I have to keep my promises,» he says, referring to his re-election as governor. “I'm going to have our legislative session, do things for the people. I'm still in the middle of it. I have about another week or so, and then I have a Budget and all that. I'm not going to make any decisions until then,” he says. But then he quickly adds, “But the end of that time is approaching, closer now than it was six months ago. So just stay tuned.”
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